Panel and Fellowship: Dating/Marriage

Friday 3/2
6:30-7:15pm
Dinner at Extreme Pizza

7:30-9:30pm
Panel on Dating/Marriage
with Walton/Tina Yuen, Tina Tsuei, Ed/Ling Cheng
at the Yuen's House (10737 Quarry Oaks Trail)

Hanging out afterwards at Kerbey Lane (183/Spicewood Springs)

Notes:
Dating and Relationships
March 2, 2007

• Introductions
• Tina Tsuei: met Pastor G. in 1990. Started corresponding later that year through letters for a year. Dated 3 years after moving to MN for grad school
• Walton/Tina Yuen: met in undergrad, started dating seven years later. Became youth counsellors, ended up taking their groups to the same events (accidentally). Started dating right before went to seminary.
• Ed/Ling Cheng: met in fall 1997 in Cornerstone. Started dating Feb 1998. Did a lot of email correspondence (even though were at the same church). Dated for 10-11 months before proposed, engaged for another 10 months.
• Q: What are some female misconceptions of marriage?
• Ling: (from non-Christian dad) You think that your husband will take care of you (like your dad did), but you are going to take care of him as much as he takes of you.
• TinaT: You think that being married to someone spiritually mature it will be easier, but it still takes a lot of work and talking through things.
• TinaT: You think you will be the center of his attention, but men are more compartmentalized and when he's in another compartment, you aren't really there.
• If you come in with the idea that he's always going to be thinking of you, you'll probably be disappointed.
• TinaY: You think that your baggage will be taken care of when you get married, but he comes in with baggage, too.
• Q: Male misconceptions
• Ed: You think that she will take care of all the housework, but that w
• Walton: Thought it would take a lot of work, but was unprepared for the amount of work it actually is. It's not always happy, but there are times of tremendous joy.
• Q: [Lee said women wanted leaders] Do women want a leader?
• TinaT: We often look for rahrah leaders, but should be looking for servant leader. Some guys won't look like leaders, but will be servant leaders.
• It's not necessarily how much Bible he knows, but how committed he is to acting with Biblical character.
• Ling: Someone who will lead your family, not necessarily a CEO style leader. Takes into consideration your opinions. Someone I can respect.
• Marilyn: How do you find someone like that?
• Ling: Look at the fruit in his life
• Tina: Remember that no man is perfect, and you can't be disappointed when you find out that he isn't later on
• Tina: Someone who loves the Lord that I can submit to. Took initiative on memorizing scripture together, reading books, seeking God's will.
• Ed: Always felt wasn't a leader, because thought it was a CEO, take-charge guy. But came to realize that you can lead by gathering opinons first.
• Walton: Ultimately a leader is someone who takes responsibility, not necessarily someone who takes charge. Do they take responsibility for their failures?
• Q: What does "respect" mean to a guy, and what things to girls do that come across as disrespect
• Ed: Respect is the feeling that your wife is always cheering for you. Praises you when you do something well, particularly if she praises someone else.
• Walton: There are ways of disagreeing that show more respect--disagreeing privately instead of in a crowd shows more respect
• Tina: Decided before they were married to not put each other down in public or laugh at the other person's expense, and it has been important
• Q: How can I as a female show respect to a guy without giving him the wrong impression (i.e. romantically interested)
• [hmm...]
• TinaY: talk to them like your brother
• Ling: if someone's in trouble, show concern, but have another guy talk to them
• TinaY/Ling: don't talk alone, don't talk late at night
• Q: Lee said women want love and affirmation; what does that look like?
• Ling: Words of affirmation. Shows appreciation in what I do, large or small
• TinaT: Showing appreciation. Being willing to put my needs before his and help out.
• TinaY: Taking time to be romantic. Offering to help when I'm tired. Know the other person's love language ("how can I fill your love tank today?").
• All three started off by
• Q: How can guys show love and affirmation without sending the wrong impression?
• Tina: faith is contrasted with fear in the Bible. Don't not do something out of fear that it will be taken the wrong way; just deal with that if it happens.
• Ling: And it might lead to a romantic relationship, and that might be a good thing!
• Walton: Loving people is hard; it's always easier to not love.
• Q: "You should not have deep relationships with the opposite gender once your married." Agree or disagree?
• TinaY: It's ok to have a deep relationship as a couple
• TinaT: If the relationship is starting to look at all like a dating/married relationship it is unwise. But God didn't prohibit it, so we should blanket rule it out."
• Q: How can you be satisfied with God as a single person?
• Ling: You can be lonely in a marriage. If you're looking for the other person to fill you, you're getting married for the wrong reason.
• Ed: if God intended for you to be married, you'll probably always feel that way
• TinaT: If you're older and not married or married and want kids, it's hard because in addition to loneliness there is the loneliness of your peers having moved on. But if you press into God during hard times, He will reveal Himself to you.
• Q: What is God's intention for marriage?
• Walton: Oneness, in many areas. Once you've been married for a while it's easy to just maintain the status quo, instead of moving towards oneness in spirit. If you're not moving towards oneness, you're drifting away.
• Also, learn how to love another person like He loves us.
• Marilyn: umm, what does "oneness" mean again?
• Oneness of purpose. Companionship. Sharing the deep parts of you. Oneness of legacy--your impact can be more than the sum of the parts.
• Q: So what's the purpose of dating?
• Ed: Defines "dating" as exclusivity. Without exclusivity, you cannot share as deeply. Dating is about growing in sharing deeply.
• Ling: Dating is getting ready for marriage. Dating is when you've found a good candidate for marriage.
• Ed: Non-courtship dating is just to get to know the other person better.
• TinaY: It's good to be a friend before you start dating--they'll see both side of you when your married.
• Q: Advice on what guys could do to improve themselves?
• Andy: Show that you value what gals are thinking. Become a student of them; be curious and show that you value it.
• If you are naturally quiet, ask question to bring them out
• If you tend to dominate conversations, helps to consider them more important than you.
• Find out what they value and start valuing it yourself.
• Q: How do you learn to love each other more?
• Ling: Liked just hanging out together every Friday
• TinaT: It's not good if guys and girls are always hanging out with each other.
• Ling: With email, if you don't want to send the wrong impression, CC: somebody.
• Ed: Camping trips and group events are important for building deeper friendships (not just romantically)
• Q: One thing you wish someone told you before you were married / what is the biggest mistake you made
• TinaT: We tend to live single when we are single. It's easier to be self-absorbed when you live alone, which is the opposite of what you need to do when you are married.
• Ed: Communication is key. Women tend to want the man to just know; guys are fine with just being asked. Women need to be able to give gentle reminders, men need to learn what women want.
• TinaT: Women tend to think it isn't romantic if they have to tell the guy what they want, but guys don't think the same way.
• Walton: When you find out something they appreciate, build it into your marriage. Ex. If she likes flowers, maybe keep a flower pot always full.
• Marilyn: Learn to express your feelings.

BONUS Questions (not answered during the panel):

If a guy is interested in a gal, how should he go about pursuing her? (more than just praying, initiating..) Are there any misconceptions that women have about how a guy should be pursuing?

Tina T- I don't have much input on this one, but I really liked Andy's answer, when he encouraged guys to be a student of the one in whom they're interested. Even in group settings, a guy can show genuine interest in a gal by asking good questions and listening intently to her answers. I don't know if this falls into the category of misconceptions, but one exhortation I would have for people in the dating or "interested in dating" stage is this: Have integrity. By that I mean, make sure you're presenting a true picture of who you are. Of course romance can lead us to do things we don't normally do, but strive to be yourself. That way the other person gets to know "the real you" instead of just the person you think (s)he wants you to be.

Walton- Practically speaking, it helps to remember that this whole dating process is far more than merely finding a compatible partner who gets along with you easily. Marriage is going to be more challenging than you think, and you can’t simply rely on the idea that you thought you two got along pretty well at some point. Marriage is meant to be a joyful experience and it also is meant to be a way for God to stretch our faith and capacity to love. A very key idea is to grasp where God is leading you, or at least what He seems to be developing in you. It’s not mystical; you can examine your past experiences and how God has designed you so far, and you can get a sense of His leading so far. What’s the big deal about this? Well, your sense of God’s leading is going to factor significantly into how your relationship develops. The bottom line is to desire to honor God above all else before and as you enter into this relationship. Okay, let’s say you sense God’s leading you into this relationship, what next? The ways to pursue next are as varied as there are individuals, but the common thread is to ask, “How can I move ahead by faith and desiring to honor God first?” Moving ahead by faith is not blind bravado. It’s a genuine trust that God will open the doors in His timing as you take that step. No demands. It can be as simple as approaching this woman you’ve gotten to know as a friend and having an honest conversation at a coffee shop about what encourages you about her and seeing if the relationship could go deeper. It only seems weird if there is NO relationship present.

- If a gal is interested in a guy (who may be oblivious, but not necessarily closed to the idea), what should she do? Are there any misconceptions that men have about a women's role in this situation?

Tina T- One of the biggest lessons I've had to learn (and am still learning), is to let go and let God be in control. It's hard to wait on God; in my natural state I'd rather just take matters into my own hands. But I've learned that I make a royal mess of things when I plow ahead to make sure that what I want to happen happens. In marriage in particular, this tendency for the wife to want to control things causes trouble. I think the curse in Genesis 3 foreshadows this struggle between the husband and wife for control in the relationship, and Paul's exhortations in Ephesians are relevant as well.

Because of my perspective, I am of the opinion that it's best for a gal who is interested in a guy to pray and ask God to act. I believe wholeheartedly that He can move mountains, and He can move oblivious guys to awareness and action. It is SO good for a woman to learn to pray and wait on God, and to learn to be open to an answer that's different from what she expects.

I'd balance my strong opinion with an acknowledgement that the Bible doesn't say anything about dating at all, and so I could see how other people might have different opinions.

Walton- Ladies interested in a particular guy: Hmm, the bottom line is the same of desiring to honor Christ first in this relationship. Is the practical question here how much initiative they should take if they like somebody? Certainly the guy should – if there’s mutual attraction – take initiative to take the relationship to another level. But what if the guy is godly but clueless? Or just kind of shy? What then? The Bible doesn’t give hard and fast rules on how women can drop the hint “biblically.” But one thing that matters to a lot of guys after they’re married is that the wife does take an interest in the things that stir their heart, whether as profound as plight of the homeless in America or as light-hearted as his favorite sport. So, it certainly doesn’t hurt to be open to learning about and engaging in the topics that interest the guy. Just a suggestion...

- How should a girl act in a dating relationship? More specifically, in the Bible women are taught to be submissive. So how do women balance that with not letting guys step all over them? Also, since men are the ones who are supposed to be leading the relationship, how can women be sure to guard their hearts at the appropriate level?

Tina T- The premise of the question seems to assume that submission means letting people walk on you. I think submission means choosing to respect and support someone in authority over you. Gals aren't collectively under the authority of guys; wives are under the authority of husbands, children under parents, etc. So, girls shouldn't let guys step all over them. A gal in a committed dating relationship should be seriously considering the question of whether she can see herself submitting to the authority and leadership of her potential future husband. Does he make wise choices? Does he ask her opinion and value it? Does he seek God's guidance and the wise counsel of other advisers? Does she think she can follow him?

- What are good principles or practices for developing strong communication in a relationship?

Tina T- Some random ideas: Spend a lot of time talking and listening to each other. Practice summarizing what you think you hear the other person saying, so you know if you're listening well or not. Figure out your peak times during the day/week, and set aside at least part of those times for communication, especially about weightier topics. There are some great books out there to spark communication about topics you might not normally think of. Persevere when communication gets tough. It's easy to say, "Oh, forget it" and drop the subject, but if you can push through it, you can really get somewhere. Definitely try to avoid a "me against you" mentality, even when you're having a disagreement. It's not about winning an argument, it's about building up the relationship between you. If things are getting heated, take a 5 minute break and then come back at it. Prayer is really key. (This isn't just trite.) If you pray together regularly, you're humbling yourselves together, and God will respond.

Walton- Wow. Could take a long time on this one, but I’ll just give one big emphasis. Philippians 2 talks about putting the interests of others before yourself. That’s a crucial principle to hold onto. When I’ve gotten into arguments — I mean, misunderstandings -- with my wife, you can’t just focus on how to win the argument. You can’t dwell on how you feel hurt. That’s putting your interests first. Putting the other first may mean going back and trying to listen carefully again to what she really means. It may mean doing something that shows you still love her unconditionally. I could spend hours talking about technical strategies for communication, but the true blockage for a lot of communication is focusing on one’s wounded heart. When we do that, we can’t forgive. We can’t hold onto hope. We can’t talk or trust or really listen. Only when we can by God’s grace look at the other person with God’s eyes and seek their best interest can be start to talk once more.

- What is the one thing you wish someone had told you when you were single? (What are the biggest mistakes that you believe singles make?)

Walton- Hmm, I guess what I would say is twofold: 1) Make sure that person you marry is hopelessly in love with God and seeking after His heart. Going to church isn’t enough. Serving in some ministry isn’t enough. Even being a visible leader isn’t enough. Conversely, that person doesn’t have to be flawless. King David messed up a whole lot of times, but in the end his heart was always in pursuit of God. Look for this quality above all others. 2) Don’t go into this relationship thinking “Just the two of us.” The Body of Christ is meant to be there to give strength to one another, and couples today definitely need other couples. We are made for community... Even after we get married.